What I think is obnoxious is christians who pray for a new car when their old one breaks down or a high paying job and if they get it are so delusional to think that god looked down on the world and said "Babies with AIDS in africa? Millions of starving children?  The malaria epidemic in the third world, hmm... maybe I should've let someone in haiti know about that earthquake - no wait, STEVE needs a new car!  Shit and Sally's job only pays $40,000 a year OMG!  How do they COPE?!  ...I must suspend the laws of the universe which cause everyone else's shit to get steve a new car and sally a better paying job... than almost every person on the planet."

Egomaniacal bullshit.

Even if there was some kind of spooky man in the sky responsible for the universe, the idea that he's watching over you is self-delusion.

@tracezilla - I try : )

If you want to feel really disgusted check out my latest blog.

I sometimes wonder why people pray at all.

Really.  If god has a plan, it would seem the height of hubris to think for a moment that your prayer would change the plan  of the cosmic creator even a little bit.

On the other hand, if god does not have a plan, then he is patently an inefficient god whose ability to grant your prayer would be assuredly suspect.  I can't think of any gods who fit this description.

And if the prayer is for god to go ahead and do whatever he planned to do anyway, why bother?

@ShimmerBodyCream@xanga - Definitely. :)

@lenybobsyouruncle@xanga - I don't know where the one wish turned into 3 is from. :p I've seen variations in modern literature where the one wish is expanded to be one wish per day that you "own" the genie. But, that's modern literature. :p

But, the Christian God is not meant to be a genie. And most Christians (at least I haven't met one that doesn't) will readily say as much. But, yet, there are many who at the same time say He isn't like a genie, but will treat Him as if He is one by insisting that nothing is going their way, so God must not exist. Or they aren't getting what they wanted the way they wanted it, so God must not exist. As if his sole purpose is to grant people's wishes. And I've never heard a Christian say that that is what God is there to do.

As for the Christians that use snakes, I'm assuming you mean the ones that often use venomous snakes and let the congregation handle them in untrained and dangerous ways. That is not so much asking for God to grant them the wish that they don't get bitten. That is more that they believe that if you are filled with the Holy Spirit and if you are strong in your faith then you simply won't be bitten. I can see where people might consider it the same as asking for a wish of protection to be granted, but it isn't. Because, either you are filled with the Holy Spirit and strong in your faith, or you aren't. It is that simple. There is no perceived luck of the draw in these congregations. If you get bitten, or if you die, it is your fault because you weren't strong enough in your faith, etc. That isn't to say that the people aren't sad when someone dies from a snake bite, though. But, to them it doesn't change what they perceived to be the fact that it was your own fault, however tragic.

At least, that is how it is explained in documentaries. :p

@lenybobsyouruncle@xanga - See, in my experience, I've only seen Christians who acknowledge that humans will always come up short, because everyone is a sinner. And most Christians I've encountered agree that God is not a genie and not to be considered like one, and religious leaders will say that as well. However, there are still some Christians who insist that if things don't go their way or if they don't get what they want out of a situation or out of life by a certain point, then there is no God. In my experience this is the absolute opposite of what I see most Christians as doing/saying, so when I do run across a Christian that decides to view God somewhat like a personal genie it surprises me, it baffles me and it irritates me. Its hypocritical, because if you confront the person about it they will come up with bogus reasons about why what they are doing isn't the same as viewing God as a genie.

But, you aren't the only person that I've run across that has heard most of the Christians they've encountered talk as if God is some kind of personal genie. So, I wonder why it seems to be more prevalent in some areas versus not so much in other areas to view God that way. Especially since I really haven't noticed, myself, where the Bible supports viewing God as a genie. There are instances where He performs miracles where He gave people things, but those were generally the basics, such as food and something to sate their thirst. Things they literally needed in order to survive. And yes, Jesus performed quite a lot of miracles that weren't always necessary for someone to live. Like healing the blind. People can live while blind, although not easily. But, they can live and neither God nor Jesus ever promised an easy life on earth. And, true Jesus also performed the miracle with the wine and fish at a wedding, which was not designed to save anyone's life or keep anyone living, per se. But, these instances were not the same thing as granting wishes and were not meant to be construed as such. And, I have never heard anyone, personally, say that they were supposed to be construed as such. :p

Which is why I just can't understand why some Christians, even though they in the minority of those that I have encountered, decide to treat God as if He is their personal genie. To me, that's quite ungrateful and blasphemous. Not to mention hypocritical.

@JabezPrayer2009@xanga - What's all?  Just condescension, really?

@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - I agree with you on that. :) But, my irritation usually comes from people who ask for something, then say they question the existence of God just because they don't get what they asked for. :/

@scrambledmegsntoast@xanga - Google "freud god father quote" (without ""'s), you will find interesting quotes about the psychology of religion.

@tracezilla - They shouldn't question the existence of a deity or a creator for that reason, but should definitely question whether any god that may exist is benevolent and intervenes on peoples' behalf.

@llamalima@xanga - Thanks.  After being dormant for ages one guy says I'm wrong and you agree with me : )

@agnophilo@xanga - That's kind of what I meant, that using THAT (God not giving them what they want just because they prayed for it) as a reason to question God is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention conceited.

@tracezilla - Well I understand it from the perspective of thinking god's like your father or your best friend and simultaneously can do anything.  If your wife or husband was dying of cancer say and you had a friend who had medicine that would cure her, but they refused to give it to you, what would you think of that friend?

I think the problem is that if there is a god he/she/it either can't help us, doesn't care, or simply doesn't get involved.  Or maybe is off in another galaxy making more life or something.

I personally don't think there is any kind of god, but it would be interesting to be proven wrong.

@tracezilla - 

"As the friend would be a regular person,
I would probably hate them for it in all honesty."

As would I.  They would have to have an excellent reason, and the only reason that would be valid would be that more people would suffer as much as or worse if they treated her.

"Since they can't see
beyond the scope of the here and now (well I guess unless they're some
kind of psychic but even then it would be limited)."

Well, you don't have to be psychic to see into the future : D

"If it was God,
however, I'd probably still be angry and I'd probably still want to
know why, what the point was to that, etc. But, at the same time, as a
human I can't really know the mind of a god, any god."

Well yeah but that's just assuming there's a good reason for it because it feels better.  There are three ways to cope with hardship.  One, do something about it (not always an option).  Two, find a positive, rational way to look at it.  Or 3, find some version of reality to accept which, if it were true, would make you feel better.

You can find something positive in everything, even death if you try.  But twisting and contorting reality to cope borders on mental illness.  A very important part of sanity is the ability and willingness to grapple with reality however pleasant or unpleasant it is.

In other words, there's a difference between saying the glass is half empty or half full (both 100% true, but different perspectives) and telling yourself the glass is really 100% full when it isn't, or that it will be full in heaven one day or there's a really really good reason it's not full etc.

"And since its
even referenced many times in the Bible that God has some kind of plan
for everyone, I guess He knows what He's doing when he lets someone
here on earth die in such a way."

I've read the bible, it says many things that not even christians believe.

"At least, that's how I see it. I don't
know how that factors into a plan of any kind, how that COULD factor
into a plan, why it would need to. But, then again, I'm not God and I'm
human. How could I possibly know?"

This is using the notion of god to convince yourself of something you can't find a rational way to conclude. I mean I could just as easily say that 1 + 1 = 45 if I could find some biblical argument for it, and say that I just have a tiny puny human mind and little old me couldn't possibly understand how something like this could be true.

Instead of beating around the bush, why not just do the math and try to see if it's true?

"I know that as a Christian, I'm
probably not supposed to hate anything or anyone, but I often do.
Eventually, I get past it. Even back when I was not religious and
considered myself atheist or at the very least agnostic, I tried to let
go of such intense negative emotions as soon as I could, but often it
just had to wait until I was ready to let go."

Here for a second I thought you were going to go into a shpeal about how dark your soul was when you were secular like me and how it's all rainbows and butterflies now, lol.  Thank you for not being like that.  I've had enough of that from religious folk this week.  A guy told me the other day how "hard of heart" I was, he was reading that from scripture, not paying attention to what I was typing and seeing for himself.

"The thing is, even if you
aren't religious or anything, and even if you don't believe in God, its
kind of hard to say that negative emotions don't really hurt you. I
mean, there's been evidence that too many or just too much of one or
similar negative emotions at once can make you physically ill. And if
you're focusing so much on bad things and whatever it is that makes you
angry or upset, then you probably also don't have your priorities
straight. So, even in the scenario you gave about cancer, I would
eventually let go of the hate. But, it would take a lot of time."

I agree completely.  Hatred is corrosive.  I'm generally at peace, but some people are just despicable.  We sometimes get angry because it hurts less than feeling sad.  But very rarely do I feel actual hatred, and it usually doesn't last long.

"However,
in a scenario like this I can still understand how someone else might
lose faith in God, or might question whether there even is a God. Or
could, rather than stopping at just questioning, decides outright that
there is no God. This is a much more intense area, spanning a lot of
emotions. Although, I would have to say that if the subsequent
disbelief comes from being angry at God or hating God for letting their
wife or husband die, its not really disbelieving in God."

I agree, that isn't rational at all.  But then faith isn't really logical, it's generally emotional or psychological, usually to do with indoctrination but sometimes other things.  So I suppose if that's the case maybe to be able to reject the ideas intellectually you have to cast them off emotionally first.  I think if someone begins to doubt out of hating god or feeling injured or betrayed by him etc, that it wouldn't make them logically think yahweh doesn't exist so much as get them to a place where they don't feel like they have to believe he exists.  There's this great scene in the movie "Saved" where this christian girl who is doubting goes up to the church steeple and looks up at the cross and just starts swearing, but not out of anger, she's like "damn...   Shit... 

Fuck..." 

And starts crying.  Like she's expecting to get hit by lightning or something for breaking the rules and nothing happens, nothing is any different.

Good movie btw.  Damn I wanna see it now, lol.

"How can you be
angry at or hate someone in that context and not believe in them at the
same time? If you don't believe in them, they don't exist to hate or be
angry at."

I agree.  Atheists get accused of "hating god" all the time, I can't even remember all the times I've had to explain this to religious people.  I can no more hate god than I can hate the tooth fairy.

"Confusion, no matter what it stems from, and negative
emotions need to be dealt with, though. Otherwise, it just poisons you
as a person, physically and mentally, and hinders you. :/ One doesn't
have to believe in God to get rid of the confusion or negative
emotions, though. :p But, its important to confront them and work
through them."

I agree.  And again thanks for the second to last line : )  So many religious people attribute anything and everything good to belief in god so that they think you have to believe in god to care about people or feel love or not want to kill people.  This was a powerful superstition for centuries, so much so that the word atheism was for most of english-speaking history synonymous with immorality.  Atheism was defined as immorality in webster's until like the 40's, and to this day 60% of americans say they would under no circumstance vote for an atheist for public office, mostly because they think you need to believe in god to have a moral compass.  Oh, and of course the boyscouts will prevent you from joining or kick you out if they find out you're an atheist for the same reason.

I hate that religions act like they have a patent on morality and happiness and meaning.  Especially when the people proclaiming such things often have hearts as black as coal.

"But, like I said, I can understand how someone in
such a situation would question or decide not to believe in God. Or
would be angry with or even hate God. I can understand that."

I get it from an emotional perspective.

"What
the post was mostly about, though, was more that when they start asking
for things like God is a genie or something and there to grant their
wishes, so if they don't get what they want then God must not exist.
Having to settle for a used car instead of the awesome new one you'd
wanted, because God didn't answer your prayer and make sure that you
got that raise at work is probably not the best reason not to believe
in God, for example."

Well there are scripture passages that say the sick will be healed if you pray for them, anoint them with oils etc.  But then the bible also supposes illness to be caused by demon possession, so if you get cancer or something modern medicine's where the smart money's at.

"I have nothing against anyone who doesn't
believe. Some of my best friends have always been and still are
atheist. :p I was once, too. And, I don't really think that someone
can't lead a life happy and fine without God. They can, I've seen
people do it. I'm not big into evangelism so I wouldn't preach to
someone who didn't want me to. But, if one is not going to believe in
God, then perhaps one should have a better reason than, "I asked for
something and didn't get it."

I agree.  And yeah, I've heard so many born-agains who used religion as a kind of second chance to wipe the slate clean and so they think you can't be decent or get off of drugs or whatever without religion. 

"I definitely understand your views
on gods. :) I can see where you're coming from with that and I think
its definitely a concept that needs to be explored more, by everyone,
including Christians. Not just shrugged off with, "preposterous!" and
ignored."

On xanga religious skepticism is generally shrugged off with "blocked" and ignored.

"Like the scientific evidence of evolution and the different
stages our earth has gone through. Like, being totally covered with
water more than once, being covered with ice more than once, scientific
evidence of dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals, etc. I mean, the
list goes on. There are a lot of things that I would really love to see
taken into account seriously and truly looked at with more of an open
mind when it comes to how science and religion, and alternative
thoughts about gods (even the Christian God), should be explored in the
context of, "how does this fit with religion?" and especially with
specific religions such as Christianity (but not limited to it)."

All very interesting stuff.  Science is great stuff even without getting into the religious implications.  Darwin himself began life (after childhood conversion) as a fundamentalist, young-earth creationist, and it was the study of geology, not evolution, that made him stop believing in a literal interpretation of genesis.  Then as he studied nature he dramatically changed his concept of god.  Believed in a creator all of his life by all accounts, but ended up a deist, who believed in a creator who was not present, or did not involve him/her/itself with human affairs.  He said he couldn't imagine a god that would create wasps that sting caterpillars and lay their eggs inside of them (still alive) so their young can eat the caterpillars alive when they hatch.  He figured that the creator started life and natural selection molded it into all it's varied forms.

"I
think that would be fascinating, personally. But, I don't have enough
smarts to do it myself. Still, I'd like to see scientists and
theologians at least make a real attempt. Not just an attempt for show.
:/"

I've learned a tremendous amount about all of these things.  And I think you do yourself a disservice.  You seem smarter (and more open-minded) than most people I've talked to.  I think you're doing that "little old me couldn't possibly understand these big, complex ideas" thing.  It's easy to treat philosophy as a spectator sport, but I assure you getting involved and trying to figure it all out yourself is well worth it.  As socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living.

@tracezilla - "I'm
not really trying to assume there IS a good reason. Just that there
could be one and as things stand I probably wouldn't understand it
unless I was able to personally meet God Himself."

I wasn't accusing you, just so you know, lol.  When I said "you" I meant the "royal" you, just general people.  But yeah, why assume there is a god and a plan to begin with?

"Well, if I wanted to know why 1+1 = 2 and not 45, I would probably be able to go up to anyone and they could explain it to me."

You're not getting my point.  I'm saying that you can take any proposition, true or false, supported or unsupported, and suppose that it's true but you're just not clever enough to understand why it's true.."

"And the glass is half empty. Because, I drank half of it. Bwaha. :p j/k Sorry, I couldn't resist."

Har har.

"Likewise,
if I was able to meet God, He could probably explain a lot of things to
me, such as why He let someone die of cancer when I asked for Him to
save them and how that could possibly factor into a plan."

And one day you could ask the fairies why they let that person die of cancer, or satan or vishnu, or a thousand other gods.  Why assume any of it's true to begin with?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

"But, I'd have
to meet God before I could ask that question and expect a verbal
answer. And as far as I know there are only two ways to meet God.
Either you die or wait for the Rapture. And who knows how long the
Rapture would take to get here, and I'm not in any hurry to die yet,
myself. :p"

Funny how all these people who claim to believe death is the release of all pain and burden and leads to eternal bliss in an everlasting paradise plan to go to their grave kicking and screaming all the way, lol.

"There very well may not BE a good reason for allowing
someone I loved to die of cancer and ignore my prayer for them to be
saved. But, I can't know that, yet, for sure."

There very well may be aliens controlling your thoughts.  We do not believe things which are possible, because almost anything is possible.  We believe things which are probable, supported by evidence.

"Lol!
Well, there was a time when I was an atheist that my soul was
dark...but that was just because I was an emo 15-year-old. :p But, I
didn't "find" religion until recently. From around 17 on up my soul was
definitely not dark and so atheism did not play a part in that at all.
:p Whether you "have" religion or God, or whether you don't, there is
no way that everything will be rainbows and butterflies. :p Maybe some
people need religion to be happy, but not everyone does."

I think people need something, but not any one something.  People can cope with pain or trauma or depression any number of ways.  They can drink themselves to death or exercise.  Both make them feel better, one is less destructive and healthier.  I can't think of a problem that religion specifically would be the only solution for, and I don't think religion is the best or healthiest solution to most problems, as it tends to create more and longer lasting issues when used that way.

"I wonder if
maybe sometimes it doesn't just sound like the right thing to say for
some people, though. :/"

If what doesn't sound like the right thing to say?

"Yeah, I'm usually a pretty mellow person, although there are sometimes when people push my buttons too much. :p"

People I meet tend not to make me feel real hatred.  Anger sometimes, but rarely hatred.

"That
does sound like an interesting movie. I've never seen it. In fact, I
think this is the first I'm hearing of it, unless I've forgotten
something. :p I may look into it!"

It's a very good flick.  It basically is a sweet comedy about the differences between a few generally secular people and the uber-religious kids at a private highschool, but it doesn't preach at all or portray one group as superior to the other.  It would be seen as "blasphemous" to more touchy religious people though, but what isn't?  Here's the trailer.

"I don't necessarily think that
I need to believe in God, though. And, I'm not worried about what'll
happen to me after I die if I don't. Or about being punished here and
now while I live. And, I'm perfectly capable of being a good person
without believing."

Well if you don't mind me asking, why do you believe?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to.

"Well, there are some
atheists out there who act as if they have some kind of personal
vendetta against religion and God and anyone who believes in God and
practices religion."

Nah.  Gods may not exist, the existence of religion and it's effects on the world are obvious.  Detesting religion and detesting god are two very different things.  Plus you have to realize that atheists take all kinds of shit from religious people on a daily basis not even getting into civil rights issues, christians trying to legislate the bible etc.  Sometimes people just blow off steam, but when you sit them down and have a conversation with them almost all of the time they're as level-headed as anyone.

"I mean, there are some atheists who, if you watch
them argue you're kind of scared they're about to have some kind of
coronary right in front of you. o.o;;; Which is probably where some
people get that idea. And, in doing so, they end up not giving credit
to people who actually don't have anything against anyone and are just
stating their opinion or trying to have a civil debate. There is no
reason to judge an entire "group" (for lack of a better term :p ) based
on the actions of a few."

Well atheists are typically stereotyped as "angry" atheists just because the only time you find out someone is an atheist is when someone pounds them over the head with a bible and they respond.  Until then they're just whoever they are.

I can't defend all critics of religion or all atheists, some atheists are dicks like every group of people.  But most really aren't, even if tensions may get high in arguments now and then.

"Oddly enough, I don't remember a time I
truly believed in the Tooth Fairy. I always knew it was just my mom
putting quarters under my pillow. :p But, I pretended to believe so
that she'd keep doing it and I'd keep gettin the easy money. And this
has no bearing on anything, I just giggle when I remember it and your
mentioning the Tooth Fairy reminded me."

I remember my mom told me the real story of st nick and why the tradition started, and I went on visitation with my dad and he acted like santa was real, and I tried to explain that he wasn't (it was just him, me and my sister in the room) and he kept up the pretense himself rather than listen and insisted he was real.

Wtf?  I mean if your kid is telling you the jig is up, why bother?  He told me I'd get a lump of coal in my stocking.

Apparently jesus turned it into candy canes...

Eh, but yeah he basically disowned me years later for not being catholic.  Not that that's here or there.

"Anyone
has the capacity to kill. Throughout history, Christians have killed
people, people of different religions have killed people, and atheists
have killed people. It is people that do this and it is not specific to
one group or another alone. You can't lump everyone in one group
together as if they share one body and one brain and one set of
emotions. This has been tried throughout history (and still occurs) and
every time it comes out completely inaccurate. I don't like it when
people do this, whether they're Christian or otherwise."

I criticize religious beliefs and doctrines for their effects on behavior, laws, etc.  I don't just bash groups of people.

For instance if there was a religion whose doctrine said it's okay to molest children, and the followers of that religion throughout history had molested a lot of kids, invoking that doctrine against any attempt to stop them or ban their behavior etc, you could blame that doctrine (partly) on that outcome, yes?

I can cite many passages in scripture that tell you to kill unbelievers, torture people, beat your kids, rule over your wife, put gays to death and countless other things.

I think it's fair to blame the doctrine and the notion that morality isn't just whether you're hurting or helping people, but is decreed by god via scripture infallibly - these notions are to a large degree responsible for a lot of death and pain and torment and centuries of civil rights abuses.  The bible was held up to (accurately) defend slavery for 4 centuries in north america alone.  As someone once said, if the middle-ages hadn't happened the declaration of independence would've been written on a laptop.

Atheism, deism etc are exempt from this sort of criticism for the simple fact that they are not belief systems or doctrines, they have no moral code to be scrutinized.  An atheist is his own man or woman, wholly responsible for their own actions and beliefs.  None of this stuff about divine revelation and the need to obey god's law.

"Quite true."

I expected a fight on that one, that's twice you've surprised me : )

I apologize if I've been intellectually hostile to your religion.  Old habits.

"What
is necessary and what works for one person is not always the case for
another. I think sometimes that maybe its just that now that they're
born-again they feel they need to border on fanatical about things. :/
Just to prove themselves. Or something."

Most born-agains in my experience (and I define born-again as someone not indoctrinated or exposed to the religion who converts in adulthood) use religion to cope with something they can't deal with, guilt, trauma, loss, addiction, depression, any number of things.  As a result their belief system is built on a neurotic reaction and will be no more rational.  They can't question their beliefs closely because in their mind they're the one thing saving them from whatever trauma they're dealing with, so anything that calls their beliefs into question or even might do so is considered a grave threat to their emotional survival.  This is why born-again evangelicals go on national TV and lecture people about why evolution is false and don't know the first thing about it.  They feel compelled to resist it because it's a "threat", but are too scared shitless to learn enough about it to do so effectively or to realize how non-threatening it is.

"I
don't understand blocking someone just because they disagree with you.
I mean, if you get bored of the conversation, that's one thing, as
religious debate can be and often is rather circular. But, to go so far
as to block someone, who isn't actually flaming you or spamming you or
being totally irrelevant (or in any other words someone who is NOT
being a troll) is just lame. :/ And it makes you look like a wuss. :p"

Never blocked a single person ever.  Been blocked many, many times.  I'm even banned from revelife.

"That's
all very interesting, I never knew this information about Darwin. But,
I probably would have if I'd bothered to look into him even a little
bit. :p But, its actually really interesting and I can see the logic he
used for that, even just in the little paragraph. And actually it kind
of goes in line a little with how I think when it comes to
evolution/nature and God."

I could literally lecture for at least an hour or two about evolution alone without notes or preparation, easy.  Maybe an hour about geology, I can explain how the planets formed, where dirt and rocks come from, where the elements come from, why antarctica is no longer temperate, how global warming works, how stars work etc, etc, etc.  So much wonderful stuff.  And that's not even getting into philosophy.

"You
think so? There's just so much to look into and study, the idea of
figuring out where to start is, itself, daunting."

Start with whatever is in front of you.  If you read a book every few months you'll have read half a library by the time you're old and grey.  And you don't even have to do that.  I myself have only read a handful of books cover to cover and a lot of them were fiction.  And I know more about more nerdy things than most people ever will. 

Just keep learning.  After a year or two you'll look back and be astonished at how much shit is in your head you didn't know existed the year before.  After 10 years you'll be floored.

"Not to mention
off-putting. But, I love to learn. :p I was one of the weirdos that
liked the learning part of school. Could've done without the drama of
school life, but I liked the learning. :p But, you can't learn anything
if you close your mind."

Yeah most people are too busy trying to survive in the social food chain to actually learn anything in school.  I think that's sort of why monks would go to monasteries and take vows of silence etc to try to attain wisdom.  To try to escape from all the reactionary bullshit that muddles up our lives and gain some perspective.